Chunky's Burgers

Well, I lived in SA since 1995, and never been here. I have heard many good things, and always wanted to go, but don't know why. Well, the service is great, friendly, they are very helpful and filled with warm smiles. The burger are big and juicy with fresh, green lettuce, fresh tomatoes, and fresh onions. I have never seen a brighter, green burger anywhere. So, we got 2 bacon cheeseburgers with 2 drinks and a basket of fries. This was the deal for today, and at $25, it's a steal. I have paid upwards of $40 for a burger at a hotel, and this was waayyy better. We also had the fried mushrooms, and they had good flavor, very hot and well cooked. I haven't had good mushrooms in a long time. Anyway, the place was clean and there was plenty of tables to sit at. I like places that have the rustic look. Anyway come on out and try for yourself and as always, my 2 cents.

Been here before for a car show but never ate here until a couple of days ago. The atmosphere outside has a cute covered patio with tea lights. Inside is small and contains a decent number of wooden bench tables. They are very sturdy and comfy. Ordered: -fried cheese sticks -the special which was a cheese burger(requested no lettuce), half order of fries, and a drink. -Double cheese burger and a drink. The cheese sticks were terrible. Most of them had the cheese inside of them evaporated and the breading was hard and chewy. Two out of the 6 had actual cheese in it but it wasn't much. They have no flavor at all. The special comes with cheddar cheese, lettuce, tomato, white onion, pickles. I had asked for no lettuce but ended up with lettuce in my order. Which is fine, I just gave it to my hubby. The cheeseburger looks gorgeous and delicious. The bun is stable and doesn't tear easily when you pick it up. Sadly, my burger patty didn't have any seasoning. I had to add salt, pepper, and ketchup but that still didn't help it. I only took a couple of bites and I was over it. It had some weird faint flavor but it is hard to describe. The fries had no seasonings and tasted like how wet cardboard smells. The double cheese burger had a white cheese. Unfortunately, that is the burger that got no lettuce when my hubby wanted it all the way. No problem, I just gave him my lettuce. What was strange is that his burger actually tasted delicious. It had plenty of flavor and his meat patties were juicy and tender as opposed to mine. My hubby even tasted mine and said it didn't taste like the same meat and tasted bland and bad. So perhaps don't get the special and just order their regular burgers. I wish I had tried one of their chicken sandwiches. Total: $45.09

Friendly service and hot food. My husband saw someone post about the chicken sandwich and really wanted to try it. We were disappointed that they didn’t have any. We each got the hamburger special of the day. It was very good.

Place seems nice but the Burgers not so well made those fries were awful and burnt. I was given a sample that were okay, but these clowns preparing for the order wrong and have me leftover fries. I should have told my bank as to d is sputed these charges. That was after they raved about how good their fries were prepared. That was a big no go!!

Nothing really special about the burger, has all the toppings and what not but lacking in flavor. The fries are fries. Too much for a bacon cheddar burger w fries and drink. I’d pay 12.99 for it .It’s not worth the 15 it’s advertised. Ended up paying a little past 17$ Might as well go to five guys. 6/10

First I only post reviews if I really need to. I was disappointed. Burger was cold was not cooked all the way like I asked.could barely taste any mustard. Parmesan fries no flavor and also cold. Was not impressed at all. I don’t know where the four stars come from. And a friend couldn’t do the Challenge bc of some issue with peppers. That should be updated on website.

I do have to start off by saying that the menus should definitely include prices on it because it was a little off putting seeing them blacked out. I ended up googling the restaurant and looking on Uber eats or some platform like that to see if the prices were crazy. Maybe a QR code on the menu to see prices and items would be helpful. Anyhow, to the food. It was so delicious! Probably one of the best burgers that I've had at a restaurant. The burger was so juicy in a good way and the bun was soft but grilled to perfection. We ordered fries, tots, onion rings and the garlic fries. The tots were my favorite. They were so crispy on the outside but still soft on the inside. The onion rings were a close second. Their fries were also yummy and not soggy. This place is so good. You can try the spicy challenge if you want to torture yourself and probably need a driver home. This is a cool place with some great food!

I ordered the combo of the day which was a cheddar bacon burger, fries and a drink. Right off the bat I could tell by the color, the fries were not so fresh but they were really hot so that was cool. I put some ketchup on the side of the fries and dipped them. The ketchup was bad. I opened the squeeze bottle and it smelled like something was rotten. There were air bubbles in it too. The cashier was combining the ketchup from different squeeze bottles into the others. The issue with that is she wasn’t making sure they weren’t bad and she wasn’t cleaning out the empty ones. I have to say the service was great. One of the cooks noticed we had an issue and immediately took the fries, bottle and got us a fresh basket of fries each. He told the manager why he gave us new fries but no one addressed it with the cashier. My son and I got very sick last night and all day today so far.

We haven't been back to chunky's in several years. The oldest wanted it. So off we went after church service. I won't make this one terribly long since we didn't order a lot. I had the Monterrey, the midget had a regular cheeseburger, and the oldest minion had the Island burger. We had the chili cheese fries, and frings and frots(half onion rings/ half regular fries). I will start with the negatives this time to change it up. First, I don't like when you order and they say they are out of items. We love the bottle caps, part of the reason we came. Only to be told, "the truck hasn't come in yet?". Then I attempted to order the Tejas bbq burger to then be told they had no bbq for the burger?!?! What a start huh? The food...the chili cheese fries were by far the most disappointing part of the meal. The chili was, ummm, well not very good. As my oldest said, just a slight bit higher than canned. It just had an off flavor to me. Not very appetizing. Then the regular fries had no seasoning. No salt, no pepper, no nothing. Let's get on with what we liked. The burgers were all pretty good. I can't believe I'm saying this, but the buns they used for the burgers were spectacular! Wow. The meat was adequately seasoned and cooked. Very filling and great portion for the price. My Monterrey I felt had waaaay too much guac on it, but other than that it was very good. The guac kind of drowned out the other ingredients from bite to bite. The regular cheeseburger was good too. But my oldest minions island burger was delicious. Perfect balance of sweet and savory! Table fav!!!! The onion rings were also quite good! Is it the best burger joint in town, no, not even close. It's a quality burger, and worth the price. Maybe if they had what we originally wanted it would have been a higher score. Maybe not?

Came here to support the 4 horseman challenge. And wowsers, how could one prepare. Hubby and I had the Chunkys special and ate outside in the beautiful weather. Despite the sweat drops from fella eating the super hot burger. Burgers, fries, tots, fried mushrooms we cooked and season to perfection! Sitting outside, we ordered inside and had a seat. Food was delivered timely, and we got our own refills... bottom line service was great. Enjoyed watching the four Horsemen challenge. I mayyyy be next.

We love coming here for the burgers, atmosphere, car shows, and service. Jackie our server was so so sweet and friendly! Austin the bartender was awesome as well!! We love this place.

My husband swears this is the best burger he's ever had. No matter where we go he says nothing compares to Chunky's. He orders the chunky burger plain and dry and says you can't go wrong. I on the other hand get all the fixing. The burgers are juicy and tasty and service is great. We love this place!

Burgers are huge! Juicy, cooked just right and everything in my burger was fresh and delicious! As soon as we walked in we were greeted at the door with a menu. Service was top notch. They have an outdoor area and indoor with music playing. A cool hangout place. Bike night last Thursday of the month for those motorcyclists. Plus Adam Richman from Man vs Food has visited and eaten here. Highly recommend it!!

Burger was great! Cheeseburger with jalapenos (talk about spicy), bacon (just the right balance of crispy and limp), lettuce, and onions). So juicy and flavorful. The fries were highly disappointing. Absolutely no seasoning, not even salt. They didn't taste hot or fresh just like eating cardboard unfortunately. Would come back for the burgers but maybe see if they have other sides.

Burgers were delicious!!! Food came out fast and hot. The employees were super nice and on top of it. Will definitely be coming back.

Our first time eating there and we weren't disappointed. The Jalapeño Burger (gateway burger) was delicious with just enough heat to enjoy but not be overwhelmed. Nice size and great tasting!

So I actually visited the restaurant twice in one week because the jalapeño burger was so good I had to go back. Each time I will say the warm customer service and attention to my experience was top notch. I have to share that I killed a cockroach that was crawling up the side of the wall where I was sitting and then I gave it to the waitress to throw away. Besides that I would recommend highly

I always enjoy a good burger at this place, they are usually consistent with their burgers but this time my son & I both thought our burgers were very dry. Normally i would give them a solid four stars but today it was more like a weak three stars. This was not the norm, usually they are very juicy and delicious. They were not busy today... we had tots & fries in 5 minutes and burgers in ten minutes. I don't know how they made the burgers so fast if they were so WELL DONE.... Maybe they were precooked I dunno... but they were DRY! Staff is always very friendly and the restaurant is always clean and organized. I really enjoy that they have so many varieties of burgers. Also they have good tots, fries and onion rings.

Don't microwave cold food. Food was probably cold because it was sitting out for there a while. You all need to coordinate to serve everyone the best food you have the reputation for.

Service was wonderful! I went on a Sunday just before Church crowd. Waitress went out of her way to get my order in first. Onion rings are nothing special. Burger was hot and quite good.

Staff was very friendly. The food was a good portion, and I had leftovers. Downside it comes a la carte. Not a big deal prices are reasonable, and patties are large. I did order a second patty could be the reason for leftovers, but I also had leftover fries. Will go back again and order the shakes next time.

This place is on fire. Leaps and bounds over the "new" Chris Madrid's This is my new go to burger joint. Friendly staff. Fast service. Great food. 3rd time here in less than a month.

First time here and we'll definitely be back, I had the hickory burger, it had the perfect amount of bb sauce, and the buns are so soft and fresh, my wife had the burger with cheese, and it was fantastic, we had the onion ring/tots mix, they were fried perfectly, low key ambiance, the music is playing soft, while watching football....and the staff is so friendly too, great job Chunky's

Ladies were super friendly, burgers tasted great and knew the place for the four horseman burger challenge on man vs food. Never knew this was where it was filmed. Pretty cool. Real clean hole in the wall vibes. Give it a shot, pretty darn good.

Food and service was great!! Also economically priced! The chunky wings are delicious!!

Best burger in SA. Amazingly good. Their bacon on a burger is so delicious. Size of the burgers are large the bread is great too.

Nice folks. Middle of the road food. I didn't think it was worth the trip out there. Burgers were not as dry as a lot of the recent reviews I had seen posted, so that was a plus. We drove by at least a few places I would prefer the burgers to, compared to this place.

The Big Chunk burger... beef patty was over cooked. Bacon was good. The tiny cup of queso wasn't hot enough to spread and there was too little of it to even make what a normal slice of cheese would have covered. People working there were all very nice. Funny thing was it's got a biker theme/dive bar vibe but they were playing NSYNC. Maybe it was an off night for the cook. Might try it again some other night, but its doubtful.

This used to be a five star place for me and boy has the attention to detail and quality gone down. The past several times we have ordered from here the burgers are charred and overcooked. And buns are even sometimes burned. I don't want my burger extra extra well done. I gave them several chances and ordered again to see if it was just a fluke (as it used to be soooo good) but I think next time we are going to try a different burger place. Today was probably our last time ordering from here for a while (and we used to order from here a lot) Maybe in a couple more months I'll give them another shot, but for now this has fallen off my favorites list.

After the historic winter storm of 2021, cabin fever gotten the best of us and we went out to give the famous Chunky's Burgers a try. Upon arrival place wasn't busy and even offers outdoor seating. We sat down inside due to cool evening out to be at the patio. Our waitress brought out the menu and I ordered the Big Chunky, sounded exotic included bacon strips, queso and onion rings. The onion rings were crisp however the fries weren't anything special. The choice of soda are Pepsi products at this burger establishment. The burgers were great rich and flavorful however the queso was thick and rich. Overall highly recommend the burgers and onion rings here however the service was little lacking as our waitress didn't make many rounds to us where the star falls off. Until next time Chunky's, maybe I'll try the Monterrey Burger!

#ThankYouThursday Chunk's Burgers, thank you for bringing great burgers, shakes, and food to the inner loop 410/West side of SA! I've frequented this burger joint for years (even before the Man vs. Food episode) and have always had a great burger. Burger week offering of the Monterey burger was excellent! Ham, white american cheese, and lots of avocado in a half pound burger for only $5!!! Recently with Covid19 going on, Chunky's strives to keep its employees on the payroll and help the local community (first responders, service industry employees out of wages, and people out of work) Support local and eat at Chunky's!

Hearing about this place on Food Network built a desire to see, not so much taste, the 4 Horseman of the Apocolypse. No matter what hamburger you get, it will be so tasty and prepared to your liking. They have signature hamburgers that combine unique flavors, leaving you wanting to come back again. The onion rings are amazing, not to mention the fried mushrooms. I'll be back to try some of Chunky's other menu items. Oh, the staff is very friendly and no long waiting to boot.

Excellent jalapeño burger. Tater tots were done just right. The Chunky's burger was delicious as well, we added an egg for good measure.

Don't get fooled this place is an absolute waste! food is trash. Service is trash amount of time you wait for a mediocre burger is absolutely ridiculous. I am regretful that I came here I would recommend this place go to Whataburger you enjoy it more

Can I say how scared I was originally to eat here? All you hear about is the super hot ghost pepper burger and I'm not into that. But hamburger week made me look at the menu and see many more normal spiced burgers. Again the place chose what burger to feature and here was uncharted for me. Monterrey Burger...two slices of grilled ham, cheese and avocado added to the burger. Ok, I'm ready to try most anything not too spicy but avocado on a burger? So I ordered more back up in case ...fried mushrooms and onion rings. The burger was fantastic and I couldn't eat it all that meal. Saved some of the burger and mushrooms for later. Rings and mushrooms were a little darker than I like but not fatal. The place is a little hard to find but worth turning around and trying again. I am most definitely going back for the burgers and trying other stuff as well

According to their menu, the Monterrey burger is so good you'll want a cigarette after, they are absolutely right. The burger is delicious. Both buns are perfectly toasted, the avocado is plentiful and pairs so well with the ham. I will definitely return.

Waited 25 minutes for thier basic burger no drink no fries....had to ask for my money back no one looked like they had any urgency. I would not recommend especially on a lunch break. Very dissapointed to see how little they cared.

I finally made my way here to try one of their burgers. You order and pay at the counter, receive a number to take, and have any seat you like. The staff were all very kind, and they checked on the tables whenever they weren't too busy. I got the zipper burger and mozzarella sticks. It was so so good! You can tell the burgers are cooked to order, and the ingredients are fresh and tasty. There's also a sweet black kitty that hangs around the patio who literally made my experience all the better lol. I'll definitely be back

Went for San Antonio Burger week. Fun, funky burger shop. The employees there were very helpful. A lot of choices of different burgers. I got the Monterrey Burger which had a load of fresh avocado and grilled ham, all on a toasted bun. The burger had a great flavor, hamburger maybe wasn't as moist as it could have been but overall very satisfied. Fries are the large cut standard fries, came out hot. Will be coming back to try their spicy hamburgers. Often have specialty deals on a variety of hamburgers.

Wanted to try this place so me and my wife pulled up very disappointed made me very sick and was nasty fr

Yum! I tried Chunky's Burgers during San Antonio Burger week and their $5 Hickory BBQ burger did not disappoint. This burger has sweet and spicy bbq sauce, crispy onion rings, bacon and cheese and it is so yummy! I was also a fan of their tater tots and onion rings basket. My boyfriend enjoyed the jalapeno burger. Service was quick and efficient and you seat yourself either inside or on their outdoor patio. If you're on this side of town and looking for a casual place to grab a delicious burger, check out Chunky's!

Good burgers, and good sides. I tried there four horseman burger it was really tasty, but I love spicy so if that's what you are looking for they have it. My wife had a jalapeño burger,but it was not spicy so she was a little disappointed there, but over all the burger it self was good, I would also recommend the chorizo tater tots they were really good even after a reheat.

First time here so I didn't know what to expect. The indoor dining is closed due to covid. But they have the nice patio area where there is seating. The service great, The food is good. I got the chunky burger and I had to add an egg to it. Yes it was messy but it was good.

Beyond delicious! Amazingly perfect flavors! Found this place through Elder Eats and thought I'd give it a try. I am so happy I did. The customer service is GREAT! Staff is super nice, quick and efficient. Get this they offer a discount for first responders and military! Get you some!!!

Ok, but not great. I got the Texas Kicker, and it would have been good had their queso been better. Their queso was terribly processed and salty. Very unfortunate. It would have been a pretty good burger without that. We also got their Parmesan fries, which smelled really good but had a really terrible after taste. The one redeeming thing were their bottlecaps; fried jalapeño. While very greasy we really enjoyed those. I'd give them another shot for a burger, but I'm not in any hurry to come back.

I've been here a few times and I enjoy eating jere. The food is good, the burgers are big and tasty and filling most of all. I like that you can get a mix of toys and fries or Onion rings. I love the guacamole nuger, it's not actually guacamole it's just avocado which I was happy to hear. I would have like the avo to be spread out on my burger instead of a huge half an avocado glob right in the middle, I mean I live avocado as much as the next person but it wasn't consistent throughout the burger. I'd still order it again. And I had to try the fried pickles this recent visit and I was a hit disappointed, they were too watery, wet. Needed more batter maybe, more of crisp?. So I don't think I'll order them again. The burgers are sold separately not in a meal, which I suppose is fine. There's outdoor tables as well for when that heat isn't blazing too much.

Great burger, juicy and delicious. Service was great, employees were helpful and gave us suggestions. This is the quintessential burger joint. Yummy burgers, fresh fries. You can tell everything is freshly cooked to order. There are other things on the menu but we were craving burgers and weren't dissappointed.

Food was good. Staff was friendly. You' d have to sit outside though. We decided to sit inside. Big mistake! So much smoke in there our eyes were watering.

I wouldn't say this place is bad, as all burger places are pretty good. It's kinda hard to screw up a burger if you're actually trying. What I will say, is maybe we shouldn't hold this place up high... This place was out of the way and felt like a cozy road-side eatery. It had the atmosphere of what I would call the Texan Charm. You felt, and sometimes ate, the dust coming off the nearby road and the cars blazing by. But, it felt real. It felt like I could've ran across this 50 years ago traveling the route. I'll admit, I watched the Man v. Food episode of this place and was jonesing to find a place like this while I was in town! I wanted to try the famous four horsemen while I was there, but the waiver scared me away. I did see a guy try it, in possibly the funniest moment I've ever experienced in a restaurant. The guy got the waiver done, the purple gloves on, and started choking down. He got about halfway through in what seemed to be record time, but hit a brick wall. His wife/girlfriend went from cheering him on, to berating him and calling him names. Needless to say, the guy didn't make it. His wife looked disappointed and was still talking bad about him as we left! Go have a burger and a good time here, this place has both.

Went there Tuesday night for the first time and wasnt impressed what so ever...it wasnt all talked up like they make it to b...so we walk in and immediatly thrown 2 menus at us and then the guy starts talking to the other employess..rude.. second..there not friendly or even helpful..all u hear the whole time is loud guys yelling and carrying on bqck.therr like its a college dorm...no one comes around and ask how the food is...frys r from.walmart..burger is not the best..i can gt better at wataburger..when we leave no thank u or acknowledgement..wont b back..dont waste ur money here!!!

I foujd this burger place by doing an Uber eats order and i loved the old school music they were playing when i was waiting for the food and the burger smelled so good. So, i decided to try it a week later and YES, everything was so good. I got a double with bacon,cheese and grilled jalapeños. Yum:)

Don't let the exterior fool you, you drive up to a biker bar and on the inside you walk in and are greeted by the sweetest staff! The milkshakes are amazing, the selection of different burgers is amazing. Had the jalapeño burger and it did not disappoint!

I haven't eaten there yet, but saw a story this morning on Kens 5 that they are giving away meals to those in need. Places like this need our support in these trying times and I will update this review on this burger place once I eat there...probably this afternoon. UPDATE: Great half pound burger fries and a drink for $10. They were busy, and not use to taking orders from the table so at first the service was slow, but they were super polite once I had their attention. I had the opportunity to buy a lady's lunch as I was leaving. She came in the door and I overheard an employee tellimg her all of the free burgers for people in distress were gone and they wouldn't be serving any more until 5. She said she had driven quite a ways and was on her way out the door when I caught her.

This review is based on my 8/26/2009 encounter with the Four Horseman. The Four Horseman is a half-pound burger topped with grilled jalapenos, serrano peppers, ghost chilies (aka Naga Jolokia), jalapeno jack cheese, and a good measure of habanero sauce. The challenge is to eat the burger in 25 minutes and then endure a 5 minute wait period with no beverage consumption while holding the burger down. My plan of attack was to eat the burger as quickly as possible and hopefully not taste the heat. I was informed that I would get one complimentary glass of milk for consumption after the 5 minute waiting period. I signed the waiver and took a seat while the burger was prepared. When the burger was delivered I was pleasantly informed that I could have a drink while eating the burger. I selected ice water. While the whole restaurant was being informed that I was taking on the challenge (I had gone at 1:00 hoping to miss a crowd of spectators) I opened the burger to take a look at what the bun contained. In doing this I got some of the habanero sauce on my finger. I licked it off to get a taste. I sensed the heat and wanted the fanfare to end so I could devour this burger. I said I was ready and given instructions to go. I attacked that burger as if I had not seen food in days. Big bites, minimal chewing and in 3 minutes it was gone. Then the pain started. A very intense pain in my entire mouth and the thought of the 5 minute waiting period before I could consume the milk seemed as it would be an impossible feat. Then there was a major obstacle, I had to wait a minute between finishing the burger and the start of the 5 minute waiting period. With each passing second the pain intensified by a factor of 2. For me the 5 minutes after was so much more difficult than eating the burger. The 5 (actually 6) minute wait seemed like an hour plus. I was not going to eat the burger then lose because of the wait. 5-4-3-2-1. It was done and I immediately grabbed for the glass of milk and poured it down my throat. What relief as I consumed the milk but as soon as it was finished the intense pain returned. I quickly consumed another glass of milk and then several glasses of ice water. The pain began to diminish, like a fool I thought I had beaten the Four Horseman. I had only won the battle. Two hours later I was doubled over with the most intense stomach pain I had ever endured. It felt as if I were digesting shards of glass. The only thing that would diminish the pain was large quantities of cold milk. The pain would return several times during the night only to be followed by more mass quantities of cold milk. When one consumes mass quantities of any liquid it is just on loan and never owned. The process of returning the borrowed liquid would burn causing at first intense pain and then discomfort. For the next two days it would burn when I sweat or urinated and my own tears burned my eyes.. What did I gain? The burger was free and my picture is now on their wall. Would I do this again? NEVER! .

Chunky's Burgers, featured on Man V Food, definitely lived up to its hype. My boyfriend and I both ordered the 1/2 lb jalapeño cheeseburger (plus egg & bacon), one full basket of fries and two fountain drinks all for under $30. I was so pleased that they offered Pepsi products! Great service and reasonable wait time. Simply order (and pay) at counter, seat yourself, then wait about 20 mins for one of the tastiest burgers to be delivered to your table. Fries were fresh and hot as well.. we just had to salt and pepper to taste. But to be completely honest, I most likely will not order them next time. Nothing special, at all. SN: two guys were there obviously trying to complete the 4 Horsemen Challenge (eat extremely spicy burger). It was def entertaining to watch. And to answer your question, no they did not finish it. Lol, It's supposedly that hot.

When I walk through the front door, and see a man running toward me with one hand over his mouth, and the other stretched out reaching for the door, I'm thinking to myself, this can't be a good sign. Come to find out, he just attempted the Four Horsemen Burger Challenge and failed miserebly. I looked back outside the front door and saw the young man doubled over, with his head in a trash can, making unhuman noises. Now, what to order.....I can tell you what I'm NOT ordering....... I decided to try the Zipper burger, a jalapeno cheeseburger, topped with cream cheese. My better half ordered the Texas Kicker, a cheeseburger ,topped with queso, bacon, bottle caps (deep fried jalapeno rings) on Texas toast. Both burgers were decent sized, messy, and delicious! We agreed that we liked the Texas Kicker a bit more than the Zipper. We also tried the parmesian garlic french fries.. OMG!!! These are the best! A must!!! It was a coincidence that we ate there during there 9th anniversary party, so they had cool specials lke, 20% off burgers, $2 longnecks....They also had live bands and even a comedian. The next time I take a trip to San Antonio, I will return to try something different on the menu, or maybe if want some free entertainment, I will watch these crazy people attempt the Four Horsemen Challenge.

This place is awful and overrated. The burgers were soggy and the meat dry as the desert. They got half of my order wrong and didn't even bother to read the special instructions for food allergies (to not include certain condiments/veggies). Their chili cheese fries and onion rings also suck. Soggy, soggy, soggy -- the entire order was disgustingly soggy. They also forgot the extra sauces I paid for. If only I could give 0 stars! This place isn't worth it. I had such high expectations but it really disappointed. Don't bother coming here!