Kum Kang San BBQ Grill Buffet

This is a plain no thrills Korean meat bbq. The price is quite reasonable and the food is good. It is totally self service for the food. You can get soup, side dishes, and other foods. You do get to eat all you want just do not waste ($10.00 waste fee if you do). This place is good for a hungry family or group of friends.

We came as a group of 4 and my favorite is the marinated short ribs. The Koreans like the brisket. There is also a wide variety of side dishes available to go along with the BBQ. For all you can eat, the quality of meat is decent for the price. I have been to Kpot and it definitely doesn't have as good meat quality. Not to mention that you get your food to cook or to eat. You don't have to wait for the wait staff to fetch them for you (Kpot). I don't know why people are crazy about Kpot. It's like they haven't been to a Korean all you can eat bbq before. The service is good at this place. The wait staff would ask if you need the grill change or not when they see it getting blackened and coated with all the charcoal meat remnants. I would definitely recommend this place for the value.

This buffet used to be excellent under the previous owners. Now it has gone downhill—the meat has become overly sweet and salty, making it unappetizing! And bring back the cabbage salad with mayonnaise, your new appetizers are terrible!

We like the food here. I don't feel like you're going to find variety of side dishes you want or see at other Korean restaurants which serve a set menu. The servers were attentive and kept drinks filled as well as got us the bill and cleared plates quickly. The staff are cleaning, but I feel the place needs a deep clean and redecorate or new coat of paint, AND there's always people here. This tells you people like the joint and it's a loved establishment.

The FOOD IS EXCELLENT. Ive never seen an all you can eat BBQ and Buffet like this!!! Tastey Ban Chan (side dishes) and so many delicious options, high quality meats! The water was less than but easy to look past. Sunny, and Sunny Sunny (Owner and server) and Dari(?..server) were EXCELLENT! Very kind and personable. I came very pregnant and very hungry and the owner and servers made sure I was well taken care of and they got excited over my baby bump. Will DEF come back!

Korean BBQ style on point. The food was always fresh, crisp and the atmosphere was really relaxing. I really really loved the Cucumber, and their kimchi was phenomenal. Just wow, oh and sushi. I can go on and on. My family and I really had a great time. The staff was friendly and welcoming. The price was reasonable for all you can eat, we are a family of 6. Definitely kids friendly. I definitely recommend

You walk in and are led to a table. Besides what you want to drink they don't give much other instructions, when you're there for about 30 minutes they want to shut off your grill. They have a nice selection of meats, veggies and fried ready to eat selections.

30 bucks for AYCE Korean BBQ, and that includes Kalbi ribs(short ribs). Can’t really go wrong there. They used to have a lower price if you didn’t get Kalbi but I think they did away with that option. Place is a bit rundown as is the neighborhood, but for that price and quality, I’m not complaining (too much). The appetizers are decent as are the Korean salads. Sushi looks unappetizing and the one piece I tried was not very flavorful. The cooked food looked good but was dry. Service was decent but plates tended to get piled up and we had to ask for a clean grill for the second swap. Best dishes, in order Kalbi ribs Beef bulgogi Spicy pork Marinated pork belly Beef brisket

We came as a group of 4 and my favorite is the marinated short ribs. The Koreans like the brisket. There is also a wide variety of side dishes available to go along with the BBQ. For all you can eat, the quality of meat is decent for the price. I have been to Kpot and it definitely doesn't have as good meat quality. Not to mention that you get your food to cook or to eat. You don't have to wait for the wait staff to fetch them for you (Kpot). I don't know why people are crazy about Kpot. It's like they haven't been to a Korean all you can eat bbq before. The service is good at this place. The wait staff would ask if you need the grill change or not when they see it getting blackened and coated with all the charcoal meat remnants. I would definitely recommend this place for the value.

This place's service has gone down so much. We were checked on very rarely which would have been fine but they did not change the grill a single time. Also there is a sign at the booth that shows different prices if you got Kalbi versus no kalbi. No explanation was given at the beginning or when it was time to pay. We were asked to pay for the kalbi price despite not eating any because it's the same price for everyone kalbi or not. They need to remove those signs if they are not following it. The food was decent but nothing that would be alluring to come back to. The ambiance was just a self service Korean bbq. It was a decent spot but the confusion on price, lack of explanation, and burnt grill with no change outs was frustrating.

Galbi was very tasty and the service was excellent . Had great side dishes and I can get my own meats without asking server was great ! Everything about the restaurant was superb, service , food and choices of side dishes .

This is my favorite KBBQ spot. The food is always consistent. Their short ribs in lettuce are my go to. It is all you can eat which is nice! The service is quick. The vibes are giving delicious food, not really instagram. But the food on the table makes for great snaps.

Had a great time here, loved the short ribs. Service was so sweet and they did really well switching the grills when they were very charred and burnt. Food options are great and seating is wide and comfortable.

Fantastic experience here! Love Korean bbq and at Kum Kang they have the bbq grill in the middle of the table and you go pick whatever raw meat you want to bbq. They also have a sign that says any excessive food waste will result in a $10 charge which I appreciate so that people aren't wasting food. The chicken and pork was delicious. Kimchi, glass noodles, regular low mein noodles- all hit the right spots. Highly recommend and the buffet was only about $30!

***AVOID THIS PLACE!!! *** under new management. Food quality has decreased across the board. Meat choices not worth the price. Hot bar had over fried chicken that was dark brown and bland carbs and soups. The general cleanliness of the restaurant was inadequate at best. This was our previous "go to" all you can eat Korean BBQ in Federal Way for good prices/food/service but will NOT be going back. Lastly, pricing was posted at our table and in multiple other locations outlining weekend pricing ($25.99) and the premium kalbi meal($29.99). We didn't eat any kalbi and was charged the premium meal price. When asked why I was charged that amount and didn't eat premium meats... was told "we only have one price". Definitely shady dealings. The new front end clerk looked half asleep and cannot compare to the previous ownership. Many better choices in the federal way area. Choose anything else and you can't go wrong.

We came here because our primary choice was closed. My friend had heard that this spot was a grab your own meat and it intrigued me. I've had buffet style KBBQ in California but this is the first and possibly only one in Washington. Other KBBQs are not self serve to grab meat for grilling purposes, but they may have hot bars. Anyways, the advantage of this is that there's minimal downtime. Rather than waiting years for assistance from staff to order meat, you're able to go and grab your own. Altogether, there's also less service needed but employees are available to change your grill or answer questions because they aren't occupied at over tables as much. Cool mix between Chinese buffet and KBBQ. There are two price points for the AYCE, galbi-less and with galbi. If you grab even one piece of galbi from the buffet, you'll be paying a bit more per person. It does seem to be on the honor system, but it's not hard to see if one grabbed galbi or not. No lunch pricing so I'd save the trip for dinner and the price isn't bad for a KBBQ dinner. Meat quality isn't high, but it's not too low either. Great, well rounded KBBQ and buffet combination. Alongside the raw meats to grill, it's much like a Chinese buffet with a variety of items. I believe I heard some Chinese too, so they're pretty multilingual here. There are Chinese foods and sushi alongside a fruit and dessert bar. Raw meats include beef brisket, bulgogi, shrimp, spicy squid, teriyaki chicken, chicken gizzard, beef intestine, pork belly, marinated pork belly, and galbi.

I will preface this review by stating that it takes a horrible experience for me to give a one star review, so this two star review represents an experience in which everything was disappointing, including the toll it took on my body after the fact. First, the meat felt very low quality, very fatty, and honestly, not overly flavorful. The beef bulgogi was the only cut/type of meat that met my expectation, but about halfway into our meal, they ran out of that and left it empty for over half an hour. I would not wish for anyone, not even my worst enemy, to consume that chicken... at previous KBBQ places, I've loved their spicy and teriyaki chicken, but here, I knew something was off (but obviously, I couldn't waste it all cuz I'm not gonna pay extra for creating too much waste). Immediately after leaving the restaurant, I felt my stomach turning and stayed unsettled for quite a while. Next, the sides were all cold and didn't taste very good. The potstickers and fried rice were very lackluster and calling them room temp would be generous. Finally, to top it off, it felt like the staff was annoyed that my party of three stayed for roughly 75 minutes. She kept coming by asking if we were ready to be done, giving it kind of an unfriendly vibe. While I didn't have a good experience, hopefully you do if you go here. I will not be returning.

As far as KBBQ goes this place is up there and it checks all the boxes - great service and AYCE food at a reasonable price. I went here on a Saturday with 3 other people and were seated without waiting. We all did the AYCE special and added a drink (I think this was about $30 - not sure because my friend paid and I never saw a menu haha). The meat, banchan, and other dishes are all self-serve in the center of the restaurant. We ate lots of kalbi, brisket, and pork belly. Each was extremely tasty. The dumplings and fried rice were also super good. They do have mini kimbap and sushi as well but I did not try those. My favorite side was the Korean Cucumber Salad. It was decently spicy with great crunch. Service was great as well - they were always checking to see if a new grill was needed. Dining area isn't anything special but you're not coming here for the ambiance - you're coming to eat a lot of good food at a reasonable price.

The waitress is still gruff and rude. I understand that she may not have the easiest job but I really don't want to go to a place where the employees look like they're depressed. Also what exactly are you tipping for when all they do is start and remove the grills? Unlike many Korean establishments they don't give you rice, you have to scoop up your own rice in a giant rice cooker. The food is pretty good.

Found out it is under new management, surprise that the smell is a lot improved from last time we visited. No change on food serve. Servers are Hispanic are not open for conversation. Still highly recommended.

Kum Kang San BBQ Grill Buffet is a great place to eat with family and friends for any occasion. When you first enter you're greeted with a great reception area. They check for The available table at which you are escorted to there. A table and nice decent size with a grill in the middle, tongs, forks, and chopsticks available for your use. The grill on the middle is heated and ready for you to cook. After they get you your beverage of choice proceed to get you the ingredients for what you're wanting to use. The buffet is set up in the various different sections. Meats, pudra, salad and sushi bar, as well as A minor amount of vegetables, and other things. All you do is load up each tray using the tongs as to the ingredients you want to use, and to take it back to the table. Note only take what you can or want you eat. Then you can cook it right there at the table. Every dish created there at the table is always excellent. You can never go wrong. Even though the cost is a little more it's worth it.

If you are looking for authentic Korean BBQ, it is an okay place. If you are Korean or have been living in Korea for long enough, it won't be a place you expect. However, if you are curious what kind of Korean food Korean people eat, maybe this is a place to give a try. We usually only eat pork belly. But this place, most popular meats were marinated which we don't really look for (my kids don't eat marinated meats). And pork belly is paper thin that I feel sorry everything should taste better than it supposed to be. The desert area probably was my kids' favorite. They went 3 times before we left. I have very mixed feelings to rate. I knew I should not use the regular rating for buffet restaurants, but I really think they can do better than what they are doing if meat is thick enough for BBQ. However, for people who start to learn Korean food, it is not bad though that variety of hot dish choices. The advantage parts are: As Buffet restaurant, it is not pricy Free parking Service is good Barley tea(or corn tea?) is hot and fresh Restroom is clean Waitresses check your grills and replace frequently

Stopped by on a Saturday Afternoon and it was packed! There is a waitlist you can join and they would call you when your tables ready. I have been here many times before, but I heard that they have changed management since my last visit. Everything was still good and the meat was constantly being refilled at the buffet station which was nice! My favorite meat here is probably the short ribs. For 30 bucks and you're getting good quality short ribs?! This place is very affordable but also maintains good quality meat which is very impressive. Would come here again!

MY FAVORITE Korean bbq spot period located in Fed Way! This is the most cleanest and affordable Korean spot so far that I have enjoyed. Your are definitely going to get your moneys worth hands down. I absolutely love coming here due to the fact it's buffet styled , which means you yourself can pick from the buffet your types of meat, veggies, sides & even cooked items like stir fried noodles, sushi & etc whenever you want and as much as you want. Lots of options for meat like bulgogi, pork belly, short ribs , seafood it's amazing. The service is TOP NOTCH every time my drink was empty they always came and asked if I wanted a refill , or took our used plates or changed out our grill if it looked burnt. EVERYTHING IS SO DELICIOUS AND CLEAN. Tons of parking. Don't let the bad reviews scare you away, because this place is wonderful for your Korean bbq fans! Definitely get your moneys worth and fantastic service.

The food is great the bulgogi with fresh lettuce is always good but the service is not the best as they aren't very nice but the setting isn't too bad also

Dive buffet with good food. Avoid the bathroom. My friend said maybe a pipe broke. It's seriously bad. Can't breathe in there. Almost died holding in my breathe. Shrimp is had to peel.

I love how I can get what food I wanna eat and how much. They have a varies of food from fried, raw for the grill, sushi, and I love their japchae. It was a full house they told us 20 mins but we only waited 10 mins. The server was on point in getting us drinks. It's not too noisy because everyone busy eating. If you get short ribs there an additional charge. I took away 1 star because they don't have any good dipping sauce.

My toxic trait is coming back. I can't help I haven't found another bbq to match flavor and price. It did go up to $29.99 pp banchan amazing like always, spicy beef soup amazing. We got a nice waitress this time hispanic so service was better she was a little slow but received help. We did get a couple smells of gas here and there?

The price is a steal for an AYCE Korean bbq place with marinated short ribs! They had good selection of meat and other dishes. I just went for the short ribs and came out so full! I went during a weekday dinner and it wasn't crowded when I got there but by the time we were leaving, it was packed with people waiting to be seated. I like that it's a buffet style instead of having to flag a wait staff to ask for more meat. I tried the cucumber and bean sprout side dishes and they were both excellent!

It was busy! But they were able to seat 8 adults and 3 kids quickly and near each other. Great seating setup. Food quality was much better than the other KBBQ all u can buffet style.

Great for large parties! Always a go to for birthday dinners! Service is always on point. They have something for everything and it's the one of the few places the kids will eat at!

Short rib galbi, flavor-wise, was on point. The AYCE is a pretty good deal if you bring some friends who are ready to chow!

Probably my favorite Korean bbq place in Federal Way. The food is always solid and fresh. One of my favorite things about this place is that you can start cooking right away. Whenever you're hungry you can go up and grab more meat or any side dishes. The service is okay, but you come here for all you can eat and the convenience not the service! This place is always busy during the weekend evenings and can get loud but the freshness of the food and the convenience of serving yourself makes me come back. Would recommend to a friend!

I enjoyed the food but make sure you spot yourself I fell because somehow the chair behind me glided back maybe due to the coat I was wearing but I still ate good.

bad service, low quality food, i got food poisoning from here not recommended. They're scammers

I loved the owner. She was accomodating and all the workers gave excellent service. We saw that a man was drinking a bit too much and created a large argument. The owner handled the situation and even calmed the guy down. For that, I am super impressed. They have all you can eat galbi and other meats that I love. Owner gave us a bigger table for 6 people. Great experience and we loved the owner.

I liked how all of the meat was out ready for you to just take. The service we a bit slow (grill changes), the floors were a bit sticky but high quality for everything else.

Price: $32 post-tax and tip, super affordable for KBBQ! Favorites: spicy bulgogi, teriyaki chicken, unlimited banchan Tips: Call ahead to avoid a long wait, and make sure to try everything, including the hot dishes and fresh fruits/desserts. It's truly ALL you can eat! Despite being a lifelong Seattleite, I had never discovered the treasure trove of Korean options in Federal Way. Having fallen in love with KBBQ during college in LA, I was delighted to find affordable and delicious options at Kum Kang San. Choosing my proteins, banchan, and dessert from a buffet cart was new to me, but I loved being able to portion out exactly how much meat my friends and I wanted when we were ready. Beyond that, the service was quick and kind with the servers kindly encouraging us to eat more and replacing the grill several times. The marinades were flavorful, and the spicy bulgogi was my favorite. I also made sure to load up on plenty of quick-cooking brisket and my favorite appetizers: fishcake, pickled cucumber, and japchae. I'll definitely return to Kum Kang San the next time I'm craving a quintessential KBBQ experience!

Visited on a busy Saturday evening. We waited an hour to be seated. The selection area was nice and clean. We did have a hard time grabbing staff to change our grill. But other than that, the food was good and this is one of our favorite Korean BBQ places.

The price was decent for all you can eat. The waitress showed us how to grill and kept checking on us.

Last visit to Kum Kang San BBQ Grill Buffet was several years ago and the set-up was quite different. We popped in at about 5:30 PM and there was already a small crowd enjoying the fare. The restaurant is set-up in a self-serve buffet style where guests select foods to their preference from a good selection of raw meats (beef, chicken, pork & seafood), sautéed meats, Chinese style hot dishes, Korean side dishes (Kimchi, bean sprouts, Cucumber kimchi, soups, salads and desserts. We took the advice of other Yelp! reviewers and loaded up on the Kal Bi (beef short ribs in a sauce) and it turned out to be the star of all the dishes available. Oh, don't forget the Korean Potato Salad...it's delish! We loaded up several varieties of meats, vegetables and Kimchi, much to the dismay of our waitress. She told us us to make separate plates with similar items so as not to mix the marinated sauces with other foods. We are now smarter Korean buffet diners. LOL. She brought us the obligatory tongs, scissors, chopsticks, forks, ice-water and hot tea and lit the grill then proceeded to load what foods we had on our plates onto the grill and maneuvered everything around so food completely covered the grill. After cooking and consuming our first plate we went back for seconds, this time filling our plates with mostly Kal Bi. When it came to the third plate, my wife said she couldn't eat anymore, picked a few pieces of cantaloupe for dessert. I, on the other hand, picked up a third plate and once again loaded it with sautéed Kal Bi, after which once completed I could barely breath. The service was top notch and the prepared foods were delicious. The reason for only four stars is due to the thin cut beef rib eye was quite tough & chewy, the sliced pork belly was to thick and turned out tough also. Everything else was great. The facilities, to include bathrooms, were clean and well maintained. So, if your taste buds are screaming Korean, head over to Kum Kan Sung for a real treat.

I gave 5 stars because i thoroughly enjoyed my lunch. A friend invited me here and though i'm not familiar with Korean food, i love Japanese food, bbq grilled meats, kimchee so i was ready to eat. They had a few items i don't know the name of but one was the pickled white radish; so tasty that i even saw a female customer taking too much and that was, in my opinion, a "crime" (haha, leave some for others). Another was some kind of rice noodle with thin slices of other vegetables like carrots (can't recall all so i should take a photo next time). The BBQ meats (pork, beef, chicken and others i'm not sure of) was available for cooking at your table, by yourself. I wasn't used to bbq'g so i think it got grilled too long and heat was too high but the sauce on the meat was really yum! I am planning to go in the near future with my husband.

Save your money or cough up an extra 10 dollars to go to a better KBBQ place because this was not worth it. Poor meat quality and not that much variety. It's not like your traditional KBBQ restaurant. The atmosphere was pretty sad, like a cheap Chinese buffet but replace the Chinese food with precut/marinaded meat. I'd say splurge a little more and go to a better restaurant or eat at home.

My absolute favorite Korean BBQ place ever! The food options are amazing! The meat is marinated to perfection, and all of the side dishes are extremely flavorful! My family and I have been coming here since they first opened and the owner is super sweet and accommodating. We love this place and will continue going here!

Amazing all-you-can eat Korean bbq restaurant. They have good variety of meats, great selection of side dishes. We enjoyed the short ribs and banchan. Will definitely recommend!

This buffet hands down had the best teriyaki chicken I have ever had, in my entire life. It was incredible, flavorful and tender. The chicken is what made this worth it for me. I also really enjoyed the beef broth soup. I usually love shrimp but this was just okay due to the fact that there's no other seasonings (which is to be expected due to the fact that you cook it yourself.) Overall, the cook it yourself experience is a lot of fun and I would go back again (for the chicken lol)

Got to say very friendly people here. We all came in not knowing what a self serve all you can eat Korean BBQ was like. We ask the host and he explained everything to us. Even explained that short ribs were $4 more a person. I would highly recommend the short ribs since they were my favorite. We had our first batch of rice and water delivered to us but we knew where to get more if we needed it. They had some sushi but I would not recommend it. They even had some Chinese dishes in the pre-cooked section which was pretty good. We were there mainly for the BBQ and sushi and some Chinese dishes were a bonus. They had plenty of meat selections, shrimp, and squid. We mainly got short ribs, pork belly, brisket, and bulgogi. All was delicious. All the fresh vegetables or banchan was delicious and no complaints by our group. We all enjoyed our meals and came out feeling very full. They have cast iron grill vs. the metal circles for a grill. If you know anything about cast iron grill, its hard to replace when hot. Also, the flavors cast iron grill gives, when it's seasoned with other meats, make everything taste even better. Don't change out the grill. I would highly recommend this place. People were very nice and food was great. Oh, last thing, place was clean. I always dislike a place where the smoke vents are dirty but this place was clean. FYI, they are closed on Sundays.

A big yes for this place. Food selection in the buffet was extensive. Banchan is unlimited, there are several soups, fried rice, plain rice, dumplings, noodles, sushi, and the sides are good too. The dessert bar feature several kinds of fruit, cakes, jellos. The meats--chicken teriyaki, spicy pork,'pork belly, bulgogi,'fresh shr9'p,'barbecue squid. All these For $30 per person, even on a weekend. They open right at 13'and we got there shortly after, and we were seated promptly. Servers were attentive and courteous. The place wasn't very big and it was manageably full. Will definitely be back.

I experienced rudeness from a lady waiter who was unfriendly. I am really sorry I did not offense to tell you, but I am willing to speak the truth. I do not come back again

Usually good customer service here. But tonight was awful!. Was trying to find a table for my wife and daughter that wasn't too cold. Host had us moving here and there. Then one of the Korean cleaning women told us shoo, table not ready. Like wtf?. Then when they said they where going save a table for us. Some other customers took our spot. And the employees did nothing.

Service was amazing and we were seated right away. There's something really special about going to get your own food to control your pace. Kum Kang San is the only place that I've been to that let you do that. The meats were all very good and we ate nonstop. The only thing is the grill is kinda small so we couldn't put a whole lot at a time. It also took a little bit to get our grill changed out but other than that was an amazing experience.

We went a few weeks ago and I wanted to quickly write this review. Beware and pay attention to your check! They tried to charge us for eating kalbi, which we did not and it was obvious because we had no bones. We always only eat the thin sliced brisket and pork belly. Nothing else. And they tried to charge us for kalbi which is an additional charge, which I had no idea of but the receipt had said "kalbi" on it so I was genuinely confused. I saw that the sign did say kalbi is an additional charge. It meant nothing to us because, again, we only do pork belly and thinly sliced brisket. So I told the waitress that we had no kalbi and she was nonchalant and obviously knew we were not charged correctly. So then she proceeds to ask how old my sons were (3 and 1) which I told her... and I had already let them know before we sat down. They weren't charged prior to the kalbi charge... so she brings back another receipt and now there is a charge for my children. There wasn't one before we had let them know we didn't have kalbi. Seriously so shady... I love the concept that we can get our own food, but so not worth this check battle.

Food is overall pretty good, but I wish there were more selection on the fruits and dessert instead of just mostly canned dessert. The korean bbq is definitely pretty good and I came here right when it opens so the buffet selection is quite fresh and not bad. I would come down. Downside is that the service is kind of confusing. Since the soda machine is next to the food, we thought it was self-served but they charge me $3 for a soda, which I didn't know. They should've asked us drink before seat us if it's not self-served. Also, they would secretly scoop you a bowl of rice when we never asked. Who comes here for rice, really? You ended up wasting rice.

This is a decent KBBQ spot in Fed Way. In comparison to other spots in the area, KKS is AYCE with sushi, two soup options, and desserts to choose from on top of the different meat, seafood, and banchan selections at your disposal. There is not as much meat variety nor is the quality of the meats as good as other places I've been to, but it does the job. From what I recall, the price was relatively affordable too.

This restaurant sits off the side of pacific highway a little. It has its own large parking area. Lots of space inside and each table has its own bbq. The service was fast and friendly and I was eating within a few minutes of being seated. The bbq was awesome. I love all you can eat Korean bbq. Check it out: https://youtu.be/GNFjavMTWlQ?si=uMQiDxOwOGkzaW-A

My bf liked this place & so did my kids. We enjoyed the variety of meats and sides to choose from. The waitress was very nice and checked on us regularly. Our grill was also checked on and changed. The price isn't too expensive either for a party of 4. Restaurant is clean & organized.

This used to be our go to KBBQ place in Federal Way aside from Palace as we like to grab our own foods. I was speculating whether this place might have changed ownership at my last last visit as I didn't see the usual owner'a son standing behind the counter plus changed of foods taste. we came here again last week and based on others' reviews, it was confirmed that this place has changed ownership and the food quality went downhill...Our bbq grill turned black and completely burnt only after placing meats for less than 2 mins.. what does that mean? That means they used loads and loads of SUGAR to marinate the meats... also, the hot dishes were not hot and looked like all those cooked foods have been sitting there for hours! Mushrooms looked like they should have been tossed a long time ago...